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Decision information:

Abstract: Transcript of the Reasons for Sentence (Oral)

Decision Content

R. v. Sabourin 2009 NWTSC 25          S-1-CR-2008-000061

                IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES

                IN THE MATTER OF:





                                 HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN



                                         - v -



                                 EUGENE GORDON SABOURIN









              Transcript of the Reasons for Sentence (Oral) delivered by

              The Honourable Justice V.A. Schuler, in Yellowknife, in the

              Northwest Territories, on the 22nd day of April, 2009.







              APPEARANCES:

              Ms. T. Nguyen:          Counsel on behalf of the Crown

              Mr. H. Latimer:         Counsel on behalf of the Accused



                       -------------------------------------

                           Charges under ss. 85(1)(a) C.C.,
                           264.1(1) C.C. x 2 and 267(a) C.C.





         1      THE COURT:             Mr. Sabourin has entered pleas

         2          of guilty to four counts in an Indictment

         3          regarding events that occurred on October 11,

         4          2007.  The charges to which he has pleaded guilty

         5          are using a firearm while committing the

         6          indictable offence of uttering threats, contrary

         7          to section 85(1)(a) of the Criminal Code;

         8          uttering threats to cause serious bodily harm to,

         9          and I will refer to the victims through most of

        10          this by their initials, to M.M., contrary to

        11          section 264.1(1) of the Criminal Code; uttering

        12          threats to cause serious bodily harm to K.L.,

        13          contrary to section 264.1(1); and assault with a

        14          weapon on M.M., contrary to section 267(a) of the

        15          Criminal Code.  Having heard submissions from

        16          counsel, it is now my duty to sentence Mr.

        17          Sabourin for those offences.

        18               The facts put before me and admitted by Mr.

        19          Sabourin may be summarized as follows.  On the

        20          evening in question in Hay River, in the

        21          Northwest Territories, Mr. Sabourin's common-law

        22          wife K.L. was at her grandmother's, M.M., home.

        23          Mr. Sabourin followed K.L. into the home to a

        24          bedroom where he pushed her on the bed, slapped

        25          her, and verbally abused her.  Although he is not

        26          charged with assaulting K.L., the facts submitted

        27          indicate that he put his knuckle in her eye,






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         1          which was later observed by the police to be

         2          swollen and discoloured.  K.L. and M.M.

         3          repeatedly asked Mr. Sabourin to leave the house,

         4          but he refused.  He told them he knew where guns

         5          were and threatened to shoot M.M.  He then

         6          obtained a loaded shotgun from somewhere in the

         7          house and went to where M.M. was trying to call

         8          the police.  M.M. was at the time 76 years old.

         9          Mr. Sabourin pointed the gun at her head and told

        10          her he would shoot her and K.L.  At the time K.L.

        11          was sitting on the sofa with her young son.  M.M.

        12          attempted to take the gun away from Mr. Sabourin,

        13          they struggled, and Mr. Sabourin discharged the

        14          shotgun into the ceiling of the room.  He then

        15          became agitated and twisted K.L.'s arm, saying he

        16          would break it.  M.M. tried to stop him by

        17          hitting him with a brush, which he took away from

        18          her and used to hit her on the side of the head,

        19          knocking her to the ground.  She was later

        20          observed by the police to have a two-inch lump

        21          and swelling on her temple.  This latter incident

        22          is the basis for the assault with a weapon

        23          charge.

        24               Another woman, who had heard the gun

        25          discharge, came into the house, and after being

        26          told what happened, ran to get the police.  Mr.

        27          Sabourin went in and out of the house a few times






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         1          and eventually was locked out by M.M. or K.L.

         2               At the time of these events, Mr. Sabourin

         3          was on an undertaking with conditions not to

         4          contact K.L. arising from a pending charge of

         5          assaulting her.  He was also serving a term of

         6          probation with the condition that he keep the

         7          peace and be of good behaviour.  Mr. Sabourin was

         8          intoxicated at the time of these events.

         9               I am advised that Mr. Sabourin is now 36

        10          years old.  He and K.L. have three children.  He

        11          is a South Slavey aboriginal man who, prior to

        12          the events in question, was living in Hay River.

        13          He has a high school level education which he

        14          obtained through upgrading.  His counsel advised

        15          that he suffered severe abuse at a government

        16          school in Fort Simpson in the mid 1980s where he

        17          lost all knowledge of his aboriginal language.

        18          He later suffered from alcohol problems.  I infer

        19          that there was also some violence in his family

        20          as counsel indicated that he was taught by his

        21          grandparents as a cultural matter that the man

        22          dominates and the woman must obey, and in his own

        23          family the men used violent language to the

        24          women.

        25               Mr. Sabourin has had employment in the past

        26          but there is no information before me as to the

        27          nature or duration of that employment.






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         1               Mr. Sabourin also has a lengthy criminal

         2          record that extends from 1990, when he was a

         3          youth, to early last year.  There are many crimes

         4          of violence on his record, including assault with

         5          a weapon and robbery, as well as sexual assault.

         6          In 1993, he was given a sentence of four years in

         7          jail for the robbery.  The convictions for

         8          violent crimes extend from 1990 to 2002 when he

         9          was convicted of assault causing bodily harm.

        10          After that, his convictions are mainly for

        11          breaching court orders, although there is a

        12          resist arrest in 2006.  In early 2008, he was

        13          sentenced for the assault on K.L. that he was

        14          awaiting trial on when he committed the offences

        15          for which I am now to sentence him, and a charge

        16          of breach of probation.  He received a sentence

        17          of four months' jail on the assault along with

        18          one month consecutive on the breach, and a

        19          further term of 12 months probation.

        20               Now, of course, Mr. Sabourin has been

        21          convicted of four more charges involving

        22          violence.  The record and the current charges

        23          make it clear that the Court has to be concerned

        24          that the public be protected from Mr. Sabourin.

        25               Mr. Sabourin has been in custody since being

        26          arrested on these charges on October 11, 2007.

        27               From the court file, it appears that his






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         1          preliminary inquiry was held in February 2008 and

         2          a jury trial was subsequently scheduled to take

         3          place in March 2009.  In January 2009, then Crown

         4          and defence counsel, who are not the same counsel

         5          here before me, advised the court that the matter

         6          could not be resolved and the trial would proceed

         7          as a judge alone trial, however in early March

         8          2009 the accused changed counsel to his present

         9          counsel and the trial was adjourned to June for

        10          that reason.  Mr. Sabourin was pursuing release

        11          when I take it negotiations between Crown and

        12          defence prompted him to plead guilty to most of

        13          the charges in the Indictment.

        14               Both M.M. and K.L. provided victim impact

        15          statements.  There is material in both statements

        16          that should not be included in a victim impact

        17          statement.  The relevant section of the Criminal

        18          Code, section 722, says that in such a statement

        19          the victim is to describe the harm done to, or

        20          loss suffered by, the victim arising from the

        21          commission of the offence.  The victim statements

        22          in this case go far beyond that.  So in looking

        23          at the statements, I have taken into account only

        24          the parts that conform with section 722.

        25               M.M. speaks in her victim impact statement

        26          of being severely traumatized emotionally,

        27          mentally, physically, and spiritually as a result






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         1          of these events and still being fearful for her

         2          life.  She also says she lost her sense of safety

         3          in her own home.  It is not surprising at all

         4          that she would feel this way - an elder attacked

         5          in her own home by her daughter's spouse.  She is

         6          at the stage of her life where she has earned the

         7          right to a peaceful and calm life, and what

         8          happened has clearly left her feeling extremely

         9          vulnerable and unsafe.

        10               K.L. also speaks in her victim impact

        11          statement of the serious impact on her and her

        12          children of this traumatic event and how her

        13          grandmother's home was the one place she felt

        14          safe and she, too, has now lost that feeling of

        15          safety.

        16               Although, as counsel for Mr. Sabourin

        17          pointed out, there is no evidence that either

        18          M.M. or K.L. required medical attention after

        19          these events, there is evidence that I have

        20          already referred to that both were observed to

        21          have physical injuries.  It is clear from the

        22          victim impact statements that the emotional and

        23          psychological injuries are the more serious ones

        24          and may affect them for quite some time to come.

        25               The offence of using a firearm while

        26          committing an indictable offence is an offence

        27          for which parliament has decreed a punishment of






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         1          from one year minimum to 14 years maximum in

         2          jail.  The offence of uttering threats to cause

         3          bodily harm does not carry a minimum punishment

         4          but the maximum prescribed by parliament is five

         5          years in jail.  Finally, the offence of assault

         6          with a weapon also has no minimum punishment but

         7          is subject to a maximum of ten years'

         8          imprisonment.  So it is clear that parliament

         9          considers all of these offences to be serious

        10          ones for which substantial jail terms can be

        11          imposed.

        12               The law is also clear that even though the

        13          charge of use of a firearm carries a minimum jail

        14          term of one year, that term can be reduced below

        15          a year to account for remand time if the

        16          sentencing judge finds it appropriate.  That

        17          principle is set out in the case of R. v. Wust,

        18          2001 Supreme Court Reports, page 455.

        19               I want to talk about the positions of the

        20          Crown and defence in a little more detail than

        21          usual.

        22               My understanding when counsel first

        23          addressed this matter was that they had, or hoped

        24          they had, a joint submission on sentence.

        25          However after hearing their submissions, it is

        26          clear to me that counsel did not have a joint

        27          submission.  They did have what might be called a






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         1          plea bargain in that they agreed in part on

         2          aspects of the sentence that should be imposed on

         3          Mr. Sabourin, and I infer that he agreed to plead

         4          guilty at least in part because of the position

         5          taken by the Crown.  But Crown and defence

         6          counsel do not agree on some important aspects of

         7          the sentence, particularly how the remand time

         8          should be dealt with.  The position taken by each

         9          of them would result in very different sentences

        10          being imposed, as I will explain.

        11               Crown counsel says that an appropriate

        12          sentence in all the circumstances is one of 30

        13          months in jail reduced to take into account the

        14          remand time, plus three years' probation.  Crown

        15          counsel says that the remand time is the 18

        16          months that Mr. Sabourin has been in jail

        17          awaiting trial on these offences less the five

        18          months he was sentenced to in early 2008, with a

        19          further adjustment for the remission that would

        20          normally apply to a sentence of five months,

        21          making it about three months.  Thus, Crown

        22          counsel says deduct three months from 18 which

        23          leaves 15 months of true remand time.  Crown

        24          counsel says Mr. Sabourin should not receive

        25          credit for more than the 15 months because, to

        26          use her words, "he breached his way into remand",

        27          which I understand to mean that he ended up in






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         1          remand instead of being released on an

         2          undertaking or other process because he had

         3          breached the undertaking he was on for the

         4          earlier charge of assault on K.L.  In other

         5          words, Crown says it was his own behaviour that

         6          landed him in remand instead of being released.

         7          Ultimately, the Crown says after deducting 15

         8          months of remand time from the suggested sentence

         9          of 30 months, I should impose another 15 months

        10          jail to commence now.  As terms of the suggested

        11          three years' probation, the Crown seeks mainly

        12          conditions that Mr. Sabourin not contact the

        13          victims of these offences and that he be

        14          supervised.  She also seeks a number of ancillary

        15          orders.

        16               Defence counsel agrees that an appropriate

        17          jail sentence before remand time is taken into

        18          account is 30 months.  He also agrees that the

        19          remand time of 18 months should be reduced by

        20          three months to account for the sentences served

        21          while Mr. Sabourin was in remand.  He differs,

        22          however, from Crown counsel in that he argues

        23          that the remaining 15 months of remand time

        24          should be given double credit, in other words

        25          given a value of 30 months, because no remission

        26          is earned on remand time and it is considered

        27          hard time because of the lack of programs






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         1          available to remand inmates.  Defence counsel

         2          points out that Mr. Sabourin has had access to

         3          only a program not provided by the correctional

         4          facility itself and a program that is dealt with

         5          by the inmates themselves.  In defence counsel's

         6          submission, with the 15 months given double

         7          credit, that would mean that Mr. Sabourin has

         8          served the full 30 months suggested sentence and

         9          should be sentenced now to time served.

        10               Defence counsel says that the three years'

        11          probation was not discussed in the negotiations

        12          with the Crown but he agrees with it.  He also

        13          takes no issue with the ancillary orders sought.

        14               As for any sentencing, the court is required

        15          to consider both the mitigating and the

        16          aggravating factors in the case.  The only truly

        17          mitigating factor is the guilty pleas.  Although

        18          they come a year and a half after the offences

        19          occurred, I do give Mr. Sabourin credit for them

        20          as they appear to have resulted, at least in

        21          part, from a change in the Crown's position and

        22          they mean the victims will not have to endure the

        23          stress and discomfort of a trial, something that

        24          is particularly important in the case of M.M. who

        25          is now 78 years of age and for whom a trial would

        26          I am sure be extremely difficult.

        27               I should say that it is also mitigating that






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         1          Mr. Sabourin has expressed remorse in his remarks

         2          here today and has sought to apologize to the

         3          victims.

         4               There are many aggravating factors, in other

         5          words, factors that increase the seriousness of

         6          these offences.  The fact that Mr. Sabourin

         7          attacked a 76-year-old woman, an elder, is

         8          extremely aggravating.  Her age makes her very

         9          vulnerable and the consequences of, for example,

        10          knocking her to the floor could have been much

        11          worse than they were.  The fact that Mr. Sabourin

        12          attacked her in her own home while she was

        13          attempting to protect her granddaughter from him

        14          is aggravating.  M.M. is entitled to feel safe

        15          and secure in her home, not be threatened and

        16          abused there.  The fact that Mr. Sabourin

        17          attacked his spouse K.L. is aggravating, and the

        18          Criminal Code specifically says in section 718.2

        19          that abuse of one's spouse is an aggravating

        20          factor.  The fact that Mr. Sabourin attacked her

        21          in the presence of the child is an aggravating

        22          factor.  It is also an aggravating factor that he

        23          had previously assaulted K.L., as confirmed by

        24          his guilty plea to the earlier charge of assault.

        25          And yet a further aggravating factor is that he

        26          was on probation at the time of these offences.

        27               The principles of sentencing are repeated






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         1          daily by courts all across this country.  The

         2          fundamental principle is that a sentence must be

         3          proportionate to the gravity of the offence and

         4          the degree of responsibility of the offender.

         5          One way the court seeks to fulfil that principle

         6          is by balancing the aggravating and mitigating

         7          factors to arrive at an appropriate sentence.

         8          The basic purpose of sentencing is to protect the

         9          public by denouncing crime, deterring offenders,

        10          and encouraging their rehabilitation.

        11               The Criminal Code also requires that because

        12          Mr. Sabourin is aboriginal, all available

        13          sanctions other than imprisonment that are

        14          reasonable in the circumstances should be

        15          considered.  That comes from section 718.2 of the

        16          Criminal Code, sometimes referred to as the

        17          Gladue principle, to which I will refer further

        18          on.

        19               Intoxication is not an excuse for what Mr.

        20          Sabourin did.  That is very clear.  At the age of

        21          36, with his criminal record, his rehabilitation,

        22          while it may still be possible and it is not to

        23          be ignored, is not as important an objective for

        24          the court as protecting vulnerable people like

        25          M.M. and K.L. and anyone else who may end up the

        26          victim of Mr. Sabourin's behaviour.  He is not a

        27          young kid; he is a mature man with






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         1          responsibilities.

         2               Through his counsel, it was said, and he has

         3          indicated today, that he is concerned about

         4          having a relationship with his twins and that he

         5          wants to establish a good relationship with his

         6          children.  However, Mr. Sabourin needs to spend a

         7          great deal of time thinking about what kind of

         8          example he is setting and what kind of an example

         9          he wants to set for his children, because his

        10          treatment of M.M. and K.L. sets a terrible

        11          example.  A good father does not beat up on

        12          elders and does not beat up on the mother of his

        13          children.

        14               As far as the Gladue factor goes, the Gladue

        15          case itself makes it clear that for some offences

        16          it is not appropriate to impose a different

        17          sentence on an aboriginal person than would be

        18          imposed on a non-aboriginal person, particularly

        19          in cases of violence.  In my view, the nature of

        20          Mr. Sabourin's behaviour in this case is such

        21          that his being aboriginal cannot justify

        22          adjustment to what would otherwise be an

        23          appropriate sentence.  As a result, I need not

        24          consider whether the factors defence counsel has

        25          characterized as systemic should affect the

        26          sentence to any significant degree.  It would be

        27          unacceptable, in my view, to treat Mr. Sabourin






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         1          with more lenience simply because he is

         2          aboriginal when the behaviour he is here in court

         3          for strikes at an important value that is often

         4          referred to by aboriginal community leaders, and

         5          that is respect for elders.

         6               I take into account that these offences

         7          occurred in what is really one continuing event

         8          rather than a series of events separated by time.

         9          I take into account the guilty pleas in

        10          mitigation and also the aggravating factors.

        11               As to the remand time, I have reviewed the

        12          cases submitted by Mr. Latimer.  As I have

        13          indicated, the gist of his submissions before me

        14          is that Mr. Sabourin is entitled to two-for-one

        15          credit for the time he has been in remand because

        16          of the lack of remission and lack of programs.  I

        17          quote from the Supreme Court of Canada decision

        18          in Wust, which is often mistakenly, in my view,

        19          relied on as pronouncing a rule that the court

        20          must give credit of two-for-one for remand time.

        21          That is not what Wust says.  In speaking of

        22          remand time, Justice Arbour said for the Court:

        23               The credit cannot and need not be

        24               determined by a rigid formula and is

        25               thus best left to the sentencing

        26               judge, who remains in the best

        27               position to carefully weigh all the






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         1               factors which go toward the

         2               determination of the appropriate

         3               sentence, including the decision to

         4               credit the offender for any time

         5               spent in pre-sentencing custody.

         6               That ruling has been reflected in several

         7          cases in this court, for example recently in the

         8          R. v. Rayworth, 2008 NWTSC 43, where Justice

         9          Richard said "there is no automatic two-for-one

        10          formula.  Each case is to be assessed on its own

        11          circumstances."  And in that case, like this one,

        12          the accused had a history of failing to comply

        13          with court orders.  In that case, like this one,

        14          the accused was on release on another charge when

        15          he committed the offence that Justice Richard was

        16          sentencing him for.  And as Justice Richard

        17          observed in that case, it should be no surprise

        18          to him that he did not get bail while awaiting

        19          trial.  Similarly, it should not have come as any

        20          surprise to Mr. Sabourin that he did not get bail

        21          on these charges when he committed the offences

        22          after being released when charged with another

        23          assault on K.L.  He is not in the same position

        24          as someone who has no other pending charges, has

        25          not breached release conditions but is still not

        26          granted bail.  At the same time, it is true that

        27          his remand time does not attract remission and I






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         1          am told he was not permitted to take all the

         2          programs a sentenced prisoner would have access

         3          to.  Those circumstances are said in the Wust

         4          case to underlie the two-for-one ratio but they

         5          are not said to require a two-for-one ratio.

         6               I accept that in all the circumstances,

         7          having considered them very carefully, a sentence

         8          of 30 months in jail as proposed by both counsel

         9          is not unreasonable.  In my view, balancing the

        10          factors I have just referred to in connection

        11          with the remand time, something less than a

        12          two-for-one credit is appropriate for that remand

        13          time.

        14               I am going to deal, before I get to the

        15          actual sentence, with the ancillary orders sought

        16          by the Crown, none of which were objected to by

        17          defence counsel.

        18               First of all, under section 487.04 of the

        19          Criminal Code, assault with a weapon is a primary

        20          designated offence and so I have to make and I do

        21          make an order for the collection of DNA samples

        22          from Mr. Sabourin and that order will go in the

        23          usual terms as a result of that offence.

        24               Under section 109, the offences of assault

        25          with a weapon and use of a firearm in the

        26          commission of an indictable offence, require a

        27          mandatory firearm prohibition order.  Since this






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         1          is not Mr. Sabourin's first conviction and no

         2          objection is taken to the lack of formal notice,

         3          the prohibition will be for life.

         4               The victim surcharge will also be waived.

         5               Stand, please, Mr. Sabourin.

         6               Mr. Sabourin, having taken into account the

         7          remand time and credited it, I sentence you today

         8          to a global sentence on all counts of one year in

         9          jail.  This will be followed by two years'

        10          probation.  In my view, three years is too long

        11          for a man of your age.  It will be two years'

        12          probation, the conditions of which are that you

        13          keep the peace and be of good behaviour and obey

        14          the other statutory conditions; report to a

        15          probation officer in Yellowknife within 36 hours

        16          of your release from imprisonment and thereafter

        17          as and when directed by the probation officer.

        18          There will also be a condition that you take

        19          counselling as recommended by the probation

        20          officer.  You are to have no contact direct or

        21          indirect with M.M., and no contact direct or

        22          indirect with K.L.  I am not going to qualify the

        23          no contact clause by leaving it to Ms. L. to

        24          determine when and for how long contact takes

        25          place, as was suggested.  In my view, that is

        26          simply a recipe for misunderstanding and possibly

        27          disaster.  If Ms. L. wants to have contact with






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         1          Mr. Sabourin, she can speak to his probation

         2          officer about applying for a change in his

         3          conditions.  In her victim impact statement,

         4          although it was written shortly after the

         5          offence, she made it clear that she did not want

         6          any contact with Mr. Sabourin so I do not make

         7          any exception for that.

         8               Now Mr. Sabourin, by the time you finish

         9          both the jail portion, which obviously will

        10          attract some remission, but by the time you

        11          finish that and your probation you are going to

        12          be close to 40 years old.  So it is time, and in

        13          fact I would say it is well past time, that you

        14          leave behind this sort of, quite frankly,

        15          disgraceful behaviour that you showed in this

        16          case and that you start acting responsibly and

        17          respectfully.  Mr. Latimer is right when he said

        18          that you are quite well-spoken.  You obviously

        19          have some intelligence, and I am sure that if you

        20          try hard, you can put these things behind you and

        21          be the kind of man and the kind of father that I

        22          am sure that you would like to be.  But only you

        23          can do that.  And as I say, I have to say it is

        24          quite shocking to me that you would treat your

        25          wife this way and, in particular, that you would

        26          treat a 76-year-old woman this way, or any

        27          76-year-old person.  That is something that is






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         1          not acceptable in any culture on this planet, and

         2          I am sure you know that.  So you seem to have

         3          started doing some right things by attending the

         4          programs that you have attended.  I hope you will

         5          continue to take advantage of programs while you

         6          finish off this jail term and I hope that you

         7          will have learned something from all that and

         8          that we will not see you back here again.

         9               You may sit down.

        10               Is there anything further that needs to be

        11          addressed, counsel?

        12      MS. NGUYEN:            Your Honour, the only concern

        13          the Crown would have is that there are obviously

        14          young children involved here that Mr. Sabourin is

        15          obligated to support so that I'm not sure if

        16          contact would be appropriate but only if it's

        17          made say through the probation services or social

        18          services to enable the support of those children.

        19      THE COURT:             Why is contact necessary to

        20          enable the support of the children?

        21      MS. NGUYEN:            My concern, Your Honour, is

        22          just that he have some way of providing Ms. L.

        23          with child support or other support for the

        24          child.  I'm not sure that contact would be

        25          necessary but if it did become necessary that it

        26          be done at least securely.

        27      THE COURT:             Well I want to be careful






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         1          because this order really should not be dealing

         2          with family law issues which are a matter for

         3          another forum, so I do want to be careful about

         4          that.  I think the most I could do is say that in

         5          the event that any arrangements have to be

         6          made -- in the event that Mr. Sabourin wishes to

         7          make any arrangements regarding the children, he

         8          is to do that through his probation officer.  The

         9          only concern I have is the probation officer may

        10          say that's not my job.

        11      MS. NGUYEN:            Yes, Your Honour.  I suppose

        12          -- we could leave it as it is and if Mr. Sabourin

        13          does want to make those arrangements, he should

        14          just be able to understand he can bring the

        15          matter back to court if that condition is needed

        16          to be varied a little bit.  Otherwise -- there is

        17          the other process, Your Honour, you're quite

        18          correct, there is another process in another

        19          forum that can accomplish whatever he may need to

        20          accomplish in respect to those children.

        21      THE COURT:             Do you have any comments on

        22          that, Mr. Latimer?

        23      MR. LATIMER:           There's never been any problem

        24          that I know of and -- there's never been any

        25          problem.  These are infants, they're only three

        26          years of age.  And we already indicated that if

        27          he wishes to get visitation rights he's going to






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         1          do it through I think we indicated that -- he's

         2          not going to see these children unless he's

         3          legally got visitation rights and then I believe

         4          he's even acknowledging that under the

         5          circumstances they should be supervised.  So he's

         6          not going to be able to see these children until

         7          something is laid out in the form of a court

         8          order or some agreement.  There's no issue here

         9          at all to my knowledge.

        10      THE COURT:             So you're content with the

        11          order the way I've worded it?

        12      MR. LATIMER:           Right.

        13      THE COURT:             All right.  Well, in the

        14          circumstances, I will leave it the way it is.

        15          Thank you both and we'll close court.

        16                ..............................

        17

        18                             Certified to be a true and
                                       accurate transcript pursuant
        19                             to Rule 723 and 724 of the
                                       Supreme Court Rules of Court.
        20

        21
                                       ______________________________
        22                             Annette Wright, RPR, CSR(A)
                                       Court Reporter
        23

        24

        25

        26

        27






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